In this episode, Jude Boudreaux, CFP®, and Autumn Campbell, CFP®, sit down with me, host Ian Harvey, CFP®, to talk about their hiring experience. Jude was looking for a planner who was ready to start sitting in on client meetings almost immediately.  Autumn was looking for an opportunity that had more upward mobility, and more flexibility than her current position.

They had a few initial meetings and felt confident that they were indeed a fit, but moved through the Kolbe Assessment together to determine what their individual skill sets were, and whether they were complementary. Jude found that he was a high quick-start and had many ideas for business development. Autumn had a high score in the follow-through categories of the Kolbe Assessment, and was originally concerned that her skillset was too “lopsided”, and was nervous to submit them to Jude during the hiring process.

However, after discussing it together, it was clear that their opposite skillsets would be a great fit for not only generating ideas, but following through and executing them. Throughout the hiring process, Autumn and Jude have focused on having open lines of communication. Jude learned mentorship skills throughout the process of hiring Autumn, and was conscious about setting her up for success from the moment she joined the team.

In this episode, Autumn and Jude share their experiences from both sides of the hiring process, and how other advisors can successfully grow their teams in their own practices. Stay tuned for the tips and tricks that made their working relationship successful from the get-go, and the mistakes that many advisors fall into when hiring that can hurt the career progression of their new hire as well as the success of their firm.


[tweet_box design=”box_10″ url=”” float=”none” excerpt=”You try things, fail at them, and learn from them. If the goal is to have someone who is a CFP®, and be autonomous, you need to give them those opportunities as quickly as possible. – @hjudeboudreaux on #YAFPNW e151″]You try things, fail at them, and learn from them. If the goal is to have someone who is a CFP®, and be autonomous, you need to give them those opportunities as quickly as possible. – @hjudeboudreaux on #YAFPNW[/tweet_box]


What You’ll Learn:

  • What pushes advisors to hire
  • What someone interviewing for a position needs to know
  • How to hire successfully
  • How to find the right fit when looking for a job
  • What to look for in a new hire
  • How to create a smooth-sailing hiring process
  • How to leverage the Kolbe index when hiring
  • Why you should look for a new hire who’s both compatible, but also compliments your strengths by bringing different strengths to the table
  • How to learn the skills to become an exceptional mentor
  • Ways you can prepare to handle the challenges that come with managing a larger team
  • How to grow a career path for your new hire


[show_more more=”Show Transcript” less=”Hide Transcript”]

Episode Transcript

Ian: So, thanks for being here today. We have Autumn Campbell and Jude Budreaux from the Planning Center to talk to us a little bit about new hires, getting them on the fast track and creating a firm that is supported by younger advisors growing up through the profession. So, thanks for being here. Go ahead Autumn and Jude, if you’d like to introduce yourself a little bit, how you got to where you are.

Autumn: Hi. Well, thanks Ian for having us here. My name as you said is Autumn Campbell. I now live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hometown is just south of Seattle, small town named Graham. Started off my career as a teacher. Then went into counseling for some time. My now husband and I hired a financial planner who then taught us a lot, and I ended up taking CFP coursework. Was really interesting just being more financially literate, and thought that that was really powerful what I was learning in the classes, in the coursework. Didn’t have the intention of moving into the profession at the time.

Autumn: She ended up introducing me to Jude who I’ve had the pleasure of working with for nearly three years now. And so that’s the short of it.

Jude: And I’m Jude Budreaux. I’m now partner and Senior Planner with the Planning Center. But I’m just a kid from down the Bayou in southern Louisiana, and went to college. Got a degree in Finance. Went to Colorado to work for Janus Mutual Funds, and was there through the tech bubble and through a number of other happenstance things. Ended up getting my degree, or my CFP and working in a number of different capacities. Started upper line financial planning as my own firm, as a RIA in September of 2010, and then merged with the Planning Center in September of 2018.

Jude: So, Autumn and I came together as I hired kind of my first team members for Upper Line in the fall of 2015.

Ian: So, what was the precipice of the first hire? So, you’d been in business for some time at that point, and then it was time to hire. What was the driving force for you to hire someone at that point?

Jude: Upper Line had grown a lot over a few years, and you start out those firms, they start very slowly. But then once there’s some critical mass, it can grow pretty quickly. And we were at a place where we really needed some additional support. So, I thought finding somebody who was eager to learn about the financial planning world who needed some experience to earn their CFP marks, and who is really fired up to kind of come into a situation where they could be in client meetings right away, which I think is so important, and is not something that people often get to do.

Jude: So, I wanted to structure a position that offered those things, and that I was really solid as a residency. So, come work for us for two or three years and then you wanted to go and start your own thing, great. You get a role somewhere else, that’s wonderful. But wasn’t necessarily that we were going to work together forever. And so, we started from there and set out the search, and very fortunate to find Autumn and worked together for three years now.

Ian: So Autumn, how did you find Jude then? So, you obviously applied for the residency at some point. How did that go for you? How did you find Jude?

Autumn: I found him through a recommendation of our financial planner at the time. I was talking with her, as we do with our financial planners, about life. Not just numbers and about what I wanted. What I did like about the work I was doing and what I might aspire to have, which in my case was a little bit more flexibility, autonomy. Frankly, ability, upward mobility of income as well. And having been a counselor, it’s very tenure-driven, and I really wanted something that I could have other factors than just tenure be what defined my pay.

Autumn: And she recommended that I speak with Jude. She knew me really well throughout engagements over the past couple of years and the way that I interact, and she thought the I might be a good complement to what he was looking for. And so, I had some initial conversations with him. I remember thinking New Orleans? I mean, that sounds cool. But I don’t know much, I haven’t thought much about New Orleans before. And as I began talking with Jude more and I had a lot of questions for him. I didn’t just want to uproot myself and my spouse Mikeale who I had just married, I don’t know, few months prior, if that to move to New Orleans.

Autumn: But through conversation I realized it was a really good fit. Seemed like I would learn a lot. It’d be very experiential from the start. I wanted to be in front of clients, not exclusively back office support, although I knew that was necessary for my technical competence growth. And we had conversations. There was an openness to fluidity and learning together and finding what works well for each of us, and here we are three years later.

Ian: So Jude, you talked about wanting someone who was ready to sit in on client meetings almost immediately. So, what are the criteria that make someone eligible to sit in front of a client in your view?

Jude: Thank you. In my view, that’s somebody who can politely greet somebody and who takes good notes and is curious and eager to be part of that conversation. Takes somebody who loves people. And that’s ultimately what I think our business is about. So, to have those conversations and start there was what was most important for us. I didn’t have a lot of other requirements beyond that. Nor do I expect somebody who’s going to be in meetings their first day as a new resident would come in and start presenting on half of the meeting. But ultimately if this is somebody who wants to become a practitioner and they’ve been through CFP program, chances are that there’s not a lot that I have to offer to them on the technical side.

Jude: What I have to offer them is years of being in client meetings. The opportunity for them to be in those to learn how to be a practitioner. So, that’s where we begin.

Ian: So Autumn, you’re coming in as a new financial planner and your boss is saying to you, “Great, you’re going to be in this meeting as quick as possible. How do you approach that and show up for that client meeting as the new planner coming into the firm?

Autumn: Well, a lot of it was learning from Jude what his expectations were, and he allowed me to be in client meetings and to sit there. And if I had questions, he’d allow me to ask them as they came to me. Many of the questions I would put on the back side of our agendas to ask him later to understand more of the nuance of why he would or wouldn’t say certain things, or how he would say it and what that meant trying to pair my education with the practice that I was seeing in front of me. But a lot of it with him was really fluid on learning how to engage with clients and how to address things.

Autumn: And with him, it’s, there’s not a lot of rigidity. It was be present and be caring. I think he really appreciated my background in teaching and counseling and thought that I might be able-y present in that way. And that’s certainly something that I appreciate in people and I want to provide that to our clients. I think at the end of the day, they’re looking for someone who sees them and their desires and their wants and their fears and can help them navigate their numbers to fit what is their life best lived.

Ian: We’re going to take a step backwards. We’ve got put the cart before the horse a little bit, talking about meetings already. And so before Autumn joins the firm, there’s a certain level of sort of review, right, and the important pieces that go into that. And you’ve talked about doing writing samples.

Ian: But I think some of the most more interesting is talking about the Kolbe Index and how that plays a part. How do these sort of harder to measure items play a part for you? So, if you could talk a little bit about your Kolbe scores and how you’re compatible and different?

Jude: Sure. Yah, so Kolbe is a kind of a work styles profile. I often tell people when I sent it to them, I’ll say this isn’t a test to see if you’re going to be, can you do the job. This is how will you do the job? What are you naturally going to gravitate towards using? So, when my Kolbe score is a seven three nine two, which is, and those kind of four columns are fact finder, which is the first one, the ability to deal with level of detail. I think in our knowledge work industry, it’s really important to be able to handle that to a certain degree.

Jude: Follow-through is the second degree. Quick start is the third number. And then implementer is the fourth. So, for a, yeah, somebody who’s got a high degree of fact finder as I do and a lot of quick start which makes me a good entrepreneur, but not necessarily a good doer of things.

Jude: So, my ideal partner in doing work is somebody who can handle the level of detail that’s required with our client work. And so you got a high enough fact finder score. But also has a really good follow-through level and likes completing things and building systems and processes to manage stuff.

Jude: So it’s, kind of sent those to the candidates who I was looking for, and honestly most people in our industry are fact finder follow-through people. It really lends itself to success within financial planning. Almost all of the practitioners in our firm are fact finder follow-throughs. So, it makes a big difference for being able to just handle what goes on with our client relationship.

Ian: How does that work for you, Autumn?

Autumn: Yeah, so I’m eight seven three three. So, high fact finder and follow-through, similar to what Jude was alluding to it, or saying in a lot of the planners in our firm. And I remember when I got my results and I was worried that I’d be too lopsided. I was very fearful of sending them to him. But turns out that he was actually looking for someone complimentary to him which implies that I’m also very different than him. And so, I’m not a big quick start, but I work well with them if I’m allowed to have the freedom to do the follow-through.

Autumn: And so, that’s how we’ve worked together and we’ve managed through different things where Jude being very high on quick start, he’ll have many, many ideas throughout the days. And as a high follow-through and as a new hire wanting to do well, especially in his eyes as my employer, that was a lot. And so, I’ve had the opportunity to ask him, “Well, how do I do these things? How do I complete these?” And some of them he would say, “Well, those are someday maybes. I’m not looking for a timeline on those. Just maybe put them somewhere that you like that makes sense.”

Autumn: And other things he’d say, “I would really like in the next year or so I think that could be really great for your trajectory or for the firm,” or whatever the context was. And then other things that he said, “Yeah, if you could put something together, that’d be really great.” So, when he delegates, he’s also not very specific on how he’d like me to do it because he just wants the idea to be done, and will allow the people to have tendencies to work in that way to create something that’s well-fitting for the purpose.

Ian: Is it possible for a candidate to be a good candidate, let’s say in this situation you needed high follow-through candidate. But you’re not a high follow-through candidate, right? So, on some level, there will be someone along the way who is more similar to Jude than they are to Autumn.

Jude: Sure.

Ian: And so, how does that person from a quick start, high quick start, low follow-through translate and look at the board, right? And then say, “Look, this is the job I’m applying for, and I need some follow-through, even tough I’m a quick start,” right?

Jude: Sure.

Ian: How do you make that transition to get through those first years when you’re more the employee?

Jude: It’s a challenge to adapt in those circumstances. And so, I started my career on the phones at Janus Mutual Funds and I got great scores on my service and I got all this great customer feedback. And I get terrible scores with regard to compliance. Yeah, did you send people prospectuses if they opened a new fund? And all of those things. So, it can be a real struggle, so you have to find ways to adapt that make sense for you and for a role. And also, I think you got to be looking for how do I go into a place where I can use more of my skills? Because you don’t want to learn, I think the danger in adapting too far is you then learn how to be a great thing that you’re not. And how can you find a place that’s going to give you some autonomy and ability to have some of those skills? But I don’t know if that’s a super well thought out answer.

Ian: No, that’s-

Jude: But hopefully it is. And I’ve had in retrospect, like I had interns previously from the university that I went to and did their Kolbes, and one was seven three eight two. So similar to mine. And she and I would sit and we’d have these tremendous conversations. It was so much fun, and then, but like nothing happened. And it wasn’t until I hired somebody who was different than I was, that I started to see like, “Oh, well this is how that works.” And it provided for a different perspective for them, and different kinds of outcomes for me.

Ian: So, I think part of the conversation obviously needs to leads into what is the next five years from day one of the hire? So, and you’ve talked about how every firm can do this differently depending on where they want their employees to go. But for you and developing Autumn, and then Autumn having been through that process, how do you take the CFP training you learned in school, translate it to practical training, and get someone up to speed enough to take on a client of their own?

Jude: I’m a big believer in that we need to try things, we need to fail at them and learn from them. So, I think if the goal is to have somebody who’s a CFP that can handle client relationships and be really autonomous, then we need to give them opportunities to explore that as quickly as possible. So, that may not be in the first couple of weeks of being in meetings, but within a few month you can probably be handling parts of those meetings and talking about things where you’re comfortable with.

Jude: I think as managers too, it’s our role to create situations for people to be successful. And so how do we develop in setting them up for success? So for me that was, okay, you’ll talk about HSAs. And so, you explain to them tax parts why this is beneficial and then start to answer their questions. And over time, that evolves into a larger and larger skillset in terms of what a young new planner is comfortable talking about.

Jude: So, as we get through those things, eventually you could go from being in a meeting and taking notes to leading a small part of a meeting to leading parts of a meeting, and then to leading a whole meeting. And then ultimately to having your own clients to pilot from beginning to end. And again, part of my commitments to that was to, I took a young couple as a client that we wouldn’t typically been a great fit. I was like, “Look, so Autumn’s going to be your lead planner. It’s going to be half the rate that we normally would. You’re going to get a great experience out of it and I’ll be in on all the conversations. But she’s your planner.”

Jude: And got to start and have the first awkward vision conversation and kind of get through that. Because it’s going to be awkward. There’s no way to skip the part of learning and evolving and how those things are going to work. Again, I think we really needed to be really conscious of setting our team members up for success, and being able to have them evolve in a way that makes sense for them, their skillset and whatever opportunity has come forward.

Ian: What would you say to a business owner who is concerned about having a new hire in a client meeting and potentially says something wrong, number one? Or maybe they don’t say anything wrong at all. They just put a different face on what your firm looks like than what you may give.

Jude: Sure.

Ian: Depending on how they deliver the questions.

Jude: What I would say to another firm member is like our rebuilding a business or rebuilding you. Right? Like if it has to be a way that you have created it, then that’s fine. You could probably find people who will be compliant with that. But if we’re building a business that has multiple voices and people where they have the opportunity to grown and be themselves, that’s better for everybody. So, I think we want to encourage people to have that and find that voice and to be able to speak with the things that are important to them.

Jude: And you bring a young planner into planning meetings and conversations, they going to make mistakes. What I wish I would also say is like, “I do.” And so, there would be, right?

Ian: Sure.

Jude: There would be meetings where I’ll bring up the limit for a family high deductible plan and Autumn will correct me on what the actual number is. Or early on, I feel like I recall a situation where Autumn explained about a sep IRA but kind of gave the simple IRA limits. And I was like, “Well, what I think actually you’re referring to, Autumn, are the simple IRA limits. For the sep, it’s actually this.”

Jude: And so, there’s always ways when we’re in that conversation with a client to be able to say, “No, here’s actually how this is going to work.” Our clients want the right answer. They don’t need it to be immediately the right answer. I think they are comfortable with seeing that evolution just like we all are.

Ian: So, it sounds like what I’m hearing is a lot of just general on the job training and experiences, that’s sort of the best you can have. Autumn, would you agree with that? Is it more than just in person meetings, right? Is it e-communication? Do you send emails maybe to Jude and have them review before you send them out and then you can start sending more emails on your own? How did that progression work in your first three, four years there?

Autumn: Yeah. I would agree with everything that Jude said. I mean to add to it, I believe this process is iterative. It’s not you do or you don’t, or you are or you are not a lead planner. I’m a lead planner with many relationships, and I’m the second chair for many relationships. I’m also back in support not in meetings for other relationships based on what is best. And what we’ve decided is if I have room to grow or if the complexity of the client relationship is necessary that I’m in those meetings, then I will be. And other times, I’ll just help with the follow-through on things based on what I like to do and what my tendencies tend to be.

Autumn: And so, it’s funny how people have said, “Oh how was your residency?” And in part, I feel like I’m still in my residency as a portion, because I’m still learning. And I appreciate Jude allowing mem to see how he’s continuing to still learn as things change.

Jude: I would also say too, one of the nice things about being with our transition to the Planning Center, is now I’ve got a partner that is in her early 80s, Sillee Maiton is just tremendous. And so, when I’m in meetings with her, I’m second Chair. And so, just because I’ve been around the business for 20 years now, I shouldn’t be stopping paying attention to, “Well, how do they handle that in meetings? How do they discuss that?” There’s so much that we could all learn from each other, and it’s one of the things I’m most excited about with our partnership is the ability to grow and take everybody’s knowledge and evolve that together.

Ian: So Autumn, I’m curious for you, how important is the firm culture to you in allowing your progression as a planner to learn more? How does the culture affect that negatively or positively for you?

Autumn: I think culture is a big piece of that. I mean that might sound stereotypical of my generation being a Millennial. That said, it is something that is very important to me. I want to work with people who I think are good people, to each other in their professional and personal lives. I want to be proud of who I work with and the work that we do. I believe it’s really important as well that we have good relationships with each other because people, they don’t leave jobs, they leave managers.

Ian: Sure.

Autumn: And I think that’s incredibly important that we continue to be good managers, and I think that extends far beyond, here si the how to of the new job that you have. It is you’re a new person and we want to bring you into the fold and we want to, we hired you because we believe you have a lot of value to add. And so now we are a new place because of you. And how does that change the module of things? So, I think it’s extraordinarily important and something that cannot be understated.

Autumn: And so to speak specific to having worked with Jude for years now, from him I can say that consistent kindness, the patience, the understanding that if I mess up on the same thing two, three, four times, not trying to mess up. It’s because I don’t understand it fully yet. Maybe I need to do more research or maybe hearing it another way from him. But he’s always treated me with a lot of kindness, and I think that that’s, that just can’t be overstated on how much that means to people and the feeling you get when you’re in the room with others, especially someone who’s approval that I’m constantly wanting as my employer.

Ian: And so the counter question is how do you manage that culture from a leadership position in a firm? And now that you’re at a much larger firm than Upper Line than where it was you and Autumn, right? And maybe some other employees. But now it’s a much larger situation. How do you manage that culture and merging firms, there’s a culture merge. There’s a lot of culture changes that happen at that time.

Jude: Yeah, I think that ultimately it’s about the right people in the room, and if we are the right people, the way we show up together will allow us to evolve and make choices and changes together. But I’m a huge person on the service end of things. I think ultimately we expect to provide a certain level of service to clients and we speak to them in a certain way. That is the way in which we need to, that’s kind of the minimum bar for how we treat and serve each other.

Jude: So yeah, my wife’s background is at the Ritz Carlton and so, we’re ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen, that is not just for our clients. That is for each other. And so, we really believe and committed to that. And I think ultimately the way we get the best out of people is by giving them a platform and supporting them to lift them to new heights, not to try to push them and make them run up the hill until they have callouses. It’s a different kind of a work that we do.

Ian: Sure.

Jude: And so, I think it’s just really essentially important that we treat each other and our team with that same regard.

Ian: And there’s a level of this for, in order for an employee to be successful setting their expectations.

Jude: Sure.

Ian: Right? And so, what is the process by which you determine expectations for Autumn versus other employees, right? Because I think I heard you say, when I heard you speak elsewhere about the fact that it isn’t, it’s kind of like putting a career track in and one to three, three to five, five to seven, and restricting people to those years could be limiting for others and maybe too accelerated for some.

Jude: Sure.

Ian: And so, how do you manage that from an expectation setting standpoint without clear, direct barriers?

Jude: Yeah. Well, I think we have to have the heart to have the conversation. And that circles back so often to clients. Like if things are in a difficult place with clients, we need to talk about it. And it’s very much the same, we need to serve our workplace community with the same kind of care and concern that we do our client community. So, if we’re having a struggle or a challenge, we should be able to talk about it. And I’m not a believer in kind of artificial timelines or deadlines for things.

Jude: So, if somebody is meeting the goals and we know kind of what it looks like to be a financial planner within our firm, to move from a planning specialist or a residence to being a financial planner, then can you, do you have those competencies? And we should want to help you get to that as quickly as possible too. So, if there are things you need to learn, how do we help support you on those parts that are not? And hopefully we’re communicating with you about those goals and expectations more than once a year.

Jude: I’m really proud in our setup that Autumn has, besides the work that she does with me all the time, has coaching calls with another one of our partners, Matt Severdson once a month about just as an opportunity to check in on here’s what we’re seeing, and then for Autumn to share, “Here’s what I’m seeing. Here’s that I need, and here’s what’s going on.” So that again, it’s not a surprise to anybody if things are coming’s going to happen, so let’s build a way to talk about that and serve each other so that we’ll all benefit.

Jude: So, what do you think, Autumn?

Autumn: I absolutely agree with that. I think the conversation is crucial. It allows us to know where each other’s hearts are at, and how we’re doing and how we can help each other. I find that if things are a surprise in a review or feedback given, then we aren’t communicating well enough, especially if that feedback given is pretty outdated by a few months, because then we could have spent all those months improving upon whatever is brought up if it’s a corrective measure.

Autumn: I also wanted to share something about the way in which we engage with each other. One thing that Jude has taught me just through how he is is use of positive psychology in language on seeing things as learning opportunities where if I’m not getting something right, it’s a learning opportunity. And he frames things in a way that it’s something gI look forward to and that he wants me to engage in, or even use the term fail faster, so that I can learn from that. Or that we all can, rather as well.

Autumn: I’ve also learned through some harbinger training, things like heart of peace. Sometimes I’ve asked him for advice on “How should I advise this way, or advise in this topic for a client? What do you think is right? But here’s all the baggage of how I feel the way I feel.” He said, “Honestly, I think if you come in with the right heart, with a heart of peace about it and you’re willing to have those conversations knowing well that if I’m feeling some kind of way, it’s likely that the client shares some of those emotions and feelings as well.”

Autumn: So, if I come at it saying, “What are the options?” Not trying to control the outcome I want, but what works well? Is this working well? Should we change it? Yeah. That’s what he advises me on as opposed to the specifics of getting specific things exactly the one right way. I think that’s something that I remember going trough traditional schooling on being trained that there is one right way, and now I realize in the real world, if you will, and how humans actually work, we are fluid, and the way that we feel is the way that we are and act. And if we can take care of that, the other stuff tends to take care of itself.

Ian: Yeah. There’s a certain sense of taking care of our own that sort of flows through this whole conversation. So there was a moment early in your career Autumn, that required a lot of conversation and decision making around where you’re going to live and how this whole relationship will work. So, could you take us through that briefly just to sort of set the stage, and then maybe we can have a discussion about how those conversations worked. Recognizing that Jude, you had a good hire, and that Autumn, you were happy with where you were, but the life was nog exactly lining up.

Autumn: Yeah. So, I knew that Jude was in New Orleans, and so that was part of the decision factor in accepting a position with him. Three months into working with Jude, which was going really well, learning a lot. I mean, it’s like drinking through a fire hose. I mean, there’s just so much. It’s really exciting because I, as part of my strength finders, learner is my top one. So, it was a really great fit from that perspective?

Autumn: But my husband, who came with me and supported me in my new venture working in a completely new profession as well coming from education, got his dream job with Teach for America, which is the program that we both got trained in and met through in Dallas in his hometown of Tulsa. And that was a big decision point for us. And we decided that he would work there while I worked in New Orleans with Jude for my residency tenure.

Autumn: And we informed Jude of that, and I was very quick to let Jude know I’m staying here, because that could be some really sudden news for an employer, especially someone who’s put a lot of faith and I mean, already a lot of time resources and financial resources at that point. And so, I felt a lot of loyalty there. Plus, I wanted to continue working for him. It was a really great opportunity and I didn’t know of another that I could have. Not that I would want to switch anyway. There was no reason to.

Autumn: And within 30 minutes or so of telling Jude that, he thought that it was really important that we found a way to make this work, of course for the business, but also for me as a person. I thought that was pretty powerful. But Jude, would you like to share on that?

Jude: Well, yeah, I think if we were to think about this again from a client standpoint, we need to help people get into situations where they’re living and they’re happy and they’re accomplishing kind of their goals and dreams. And that doesn’t come with having a young couple be separated all the time. Let’s help you set up a good life, not just manage the next year or so.

Jude: So, when you figure out how do you get back and forth to Tulsa and spend as much time there as you can, and we’ll make that work. So, part of my role is I work in Chicago a week a month. So, when I’m in Chicago, and obviously you don’t need to be in New Orleans, and if you want to leave a bit before that or come back a little after, that’s fine. Let’s just communicate about those things.

Jude: We live and work in Chicago most of the summer. My wife is from Chicago and we have places to stay there. So, you go be back, go stay in Tulsa. Like you need to be at this desk to do this job. And let’s just keep communicating about it and how it’s working for you. Because it’s not a, it’s important that you learn and do things you need to do, but it’s more important that you are with your family and that we can help build something that’s going to really be a good fit from that standpoint?

Jude: So yeah, I just thought it was beyond anything else, like maybe it’s not the ideal situation, but bottom line is it’s the right thing to do. So, once we know it’s the right thing to do, the question is not how do we avoid doing it, it’s how do we build this together?

Ian: So, I think the last bit that would be really helpful to talk about is what is some advice you have for employers who are looking to hire and candidates who are applications and possible opportunities for fit, for culture, for everything in the right firm doing what they want to be doing. And so, maybe we’ll start with the employer, and then we’ll go to the potential employees.

Ian: So, if I’m an employer, right, and I’m building out, I want to hire someone. What do I need to be thinking about that maybe I’m not thinking about right now?

Jude: Well, I think there is a lot that you’re probably already thinking about as an employer around what kinds of things do you want them to do and skills they need to have, and all the prerequisites, and computers and insurance and all of that stuff. So, what I think people are often missing is what’s going to make me an exceptional manager? And a lot of that is, I think, ultimately skills that make you a great practitioner.

Jude: But we need to start, I think, from a perspective that is going to put everybody in a place where you can be really successful, and let that infuse through the hiring process, through the bringing somebody on and getting them into situations where they can be pushed but also where they can be successful.

Jude: So, it’s you’re bringing on somebody for their background and expertise and things and you want to communicate ways to them that they can offer and bring those forward. And it may be an evolution. There may be bumps along the way. But it’s going to be something that if you can start from inside of yourself in a really positive place, I think it will make the entire process work well.

Jude: And when you find that right person, it just provides so much background and fills the emotional bank accounts to begin where we’re investing in each other.

Ian: What types of questions would you say an employer should be asking that they may not be thinking to ask right now?

Jude: Of themselves?

Ian: Or of the candidates?

Jude: Well, I think it’s more of themselves.

Ian: You asked fairly different questions.

Jude: I do. Yeah. I mean, so as far as interview questions, I do think you need to ask people so what makes a bad day at our current job? Because if my job is full of the same stuff, this is we have a lot of bad days and this is going to be great for everybody. And I think you want to be asking too about, oh shoot, I wish I had my questions in front of me. I’ll pull it up. The yeah, thank you.

Jude: So, as I think you want to find out what motivates somebody, right? And if it’s money, that’s fine, and there’s places for that person in our industry, but it may not be as a junior financial planner. And ultimately what achievements are they proud of? Have they been able to, can they demonstrate to you that they were able to set a goal, aspire to something, work towards it, to have some struggles, and then ultimately accomplish that. And it’s, really I think it’s a good way to see about what’s in their value system. And is it something that they did, and is it on their own? Or they talk about how they built a team and how they worked together to accomplish something as well.

Jude: So, I think that’s really about some of those things and maybe an additional a little bit about working in teams, because I think ultimately so much of what we do is team related. And that is not everybody’s favorite thing, especially in college to talk about their team working experiences. But we should learn about that now while we have that opportunity.

Jude: I think two, as a firm we should be asking ourselves what are we doing to be great managers? Like if we know what we’ve learned and evolved to do to be great planners and practitioners, but is it just that you want to bring in somebody and you think you have something to offer? Or are you learning and studying and preparing to be a manager and to evolve and grow as a manager?

Jude: Is it should be, I think we should treat that with as much care and concern as the work we do with our clients.

Ian: So Autumn, if you’re talking to potential candidates of financial planning, what do they need to be looking for at firms? What are some questions they should be asking?

Autumn: Yeah. I mean, I know that there are a lot of resources that have been put out by the podcast as well as CFP Board and whatnot. So, there are questions of what are the expectations? What is the current role you’re hiring for and what are you looking for that to develop into the next year, three years, five years? What skillsets are you looking for? Is there a flexibility in that or is this pretty set in what you, the way you want to grow?

Autumn: I mean, things that we learn a lot through schools these days with out CFP education on what is the pay and what are the benefits and then aggregating that together knowing that that’s a comprehensive consideration to be had.

Autumn: To kind of echo Jude though, I think I’d have some comments around the manager side of things too, having talked to many next geners and having the privilege of being nex gen present, that many people have asked me what opportunities do you have? Or how did that conversation go with Jude or with other partners at the Planning Center for example. And I think the conversation on power and privilege is not had enough, in our world at least of financial planning on, Jude understands that there is a presumptive deferment of clients to him, especially if they are his clients and they choose him, and then I come into the picture.

Autumn: And so, he takes the responsibility to lift me up and give me some of that clout in the client meeting. Or for the accolades that I have, he makes sure to help them understand that I too have the education that he has, I just don’t yet have the same experience, and I’m still learning in some ways. As is he in different ways. Not quite as many at this point, but in his own way. And I really think it’s unbeknownst to people the amount of implicit things and assumptions that are made in a room.

Autumn: I know that when situations are confusing in our office, when we’ve had four people there in New Orleans and we’re all confused, the tone that Jude sets is the tone of the office. However that is. And we respond to that. Humans, we pick up on the feeling of the room. We talk about the elephant in the room. We all feel that few people are strangers to that feeling very quickly. And I think it’s really powerful the immense impact a manager can have on how things go.

Autumn: And I think people will rise to the expectations others have of them and rise to how others think about them. Do you think about them as a person that I have high exceptions and you better follow through on them or else it’s your fault? Or it’s I have high expectations on myself to allow you to elevate to what I see you as in the next six months, year, or three years, and I’m going to make sure that I am your support in any way that you need, however that looks.

Autumn: And I think a really great privilege I’ve had working with Jude is he had this a balance of he didn’t put a ceiling on me with my growth or arbitrary deadlines or he allowed me to grow at the paces I were. Some things I excelled in really quickly and other things took me more time to catch on to. But he always was there to help me kind of like, I think of training wheels on a bike, if I needed support. Obviously for the well-being of the client and giving them the accurate facts that are needed and whatnot. But he also was well aware of my growth and always supported me as I needed it.

Ian: I think the most indicative thing that I’ve heard you both talk about si what happens when Edward Jones calls and says, “We want to hire Autumn?” And so, ow was that experience for you, Autumn?

Autumn: Yeah. I mean, LinkedIn, we all know there’s lots of inboxes that we get and whatnot. And as I’ve grown in my professional career here and now with this next gen position, people are knowing who I am and they’re asking, “What do you want for your career?” And I remember when I first brought up Edward Jones was, happened to be the company in New Orleans that had reached out to me. But also talking with other people from other companies as well.

Autumn: And I talked to Jude about it and he immediately goes, “You should talk to them.” And I remember, I didn’t know what to respond with on that. But he goes, “You should. It’s important for you to understand what’s different, what’s similar, and find your footing.” And that there was also this sense of freedom of he wants me to be in the right fit. And if that is it, then we’re just going to be a little, we’re going to have some tension in our relationship if I’m not looking for where I’m at.

Autumn: And I think that he’s given me a lot of powerful language to understand things such as if this is not the right fit, it’s better that we both, or all understand this sooner and that we help each other find what is the right fit. And I think that freedom has ironically proved to be, allowed me to be more loyal because I can tell him what I’m thinking or what’s working well or what’s not. And within his power, he’ll adapt as makes sense. And if there are things that aren’t well fitting, then we’ll have a conversation about that, and is that something that would be worth staying based on all the other benefits? Or is that something where I’d want to find elsewhere?

Autumn: And so it’s been iterative and here I am three years later with the same firm, so there’s that. But I just, I don’t feel like Jude has coerced me into continuing to work with him.

Jude: Sure. And I think that there’s a parallel obviously there with our partners outside of work that you can be the person who freaks out every time your significant other has a conversation with somebody else, or you can be the person who can be a little bit comfortable with that and say that, “You’re a great person. You have a lot to offer. People are going to be interested in talking to you. But I don’t need to be worried about that, and if things, honestly if things did change for you, we should probably talk about that.”

Jude: So, I’ve always been okay with that. And I really think for people who work with us, I think we’re a great place to work but we may not be for everybody, and it may not be forever. So, you should be free to have those conversations and just explore what’s going on in the world. And yeah, I don’t think we gain anything by trying to be afraid of that.

Ian: Sure. But that’s a big culture setting piece, right?

Jude: Sure.

Ian: And that could have gone very differently had you said, “Absolutely not.”

Jude: Yeah, certainly. And I think to some degree too it does help that I mean, like, “Yeah, go have that conversation, and you’ll see what the onboarding process is and all those things and see if that’s really what you want to do.”

Ian: Right.

Jude: Because I’m pretty confident in what we offer. But it’s, again, if we’re going to get to hat conclusion, let’s do it.

Ian: I think the last bit to ask is is there anything you wanted to say that you didn’t get a chance to or you were hoping that we would talk about that we didn’t?

Jude: I think for people who are looking to bring somebody on, you can do all the work you want to do in preparing to host them, but it’s ultimately the work you need to do, I believe is the work for yourself and preparing how do I want to show up in the world for this person? And how is bringing that person in going to serve our clients and we serve team as a servant of our clients? Because ultimately, that’s what this is all about.

Jude: So, if we keep that in mind every day, we’ll make good choices and we’ll be in the right place for our team. And that’s, ultimately all the other success pieces have to come after. We need to be able to have that personal success first.

Autumn: I believe it was already said, but it’s kind of the final note. And I think how we show up for each other is just what resonates with me on, and it’s what we remember how people might not remember what you said to them, but they’ll remember how you made them feel. Margaret Mead.

Autumn: And that’s kind of the sentiment I’m getting at that in my experience with Jude and I’ve experienced a lot of consistent kindness despite the situation. Whether it was on me or not, we’re all working together and we’re trying to get the same outcome.

Autumn: And I also remember one distinct memory of Jude that there as a time when he had asked about something and I had not done what I needed to do on it. And so I was not feeling good about it. And he was visibly frustrated. Which is not usual. He’s a pretty flexible guy and pretty great going. But he was visibly frustrated at the time and he walked into another room. And I felt a lot of shame on not doing what I needed to do. And he came back out shortly after and then apologized for that and let me know that that, he felt really frustrated with himself on not setting me up for success. Which interestingly enough, I still felt ownership on well, had I done what I should have.

Autumn: So, there was ownership on both sides of that. But I think it was really indicative of our relationship that he as the manager and knowing how much it matters to me how he feels about things. He came back and said like, “Hey, that was a miss, and I want to let you know that that’s not on you, and we’re good. But let’s talk through how we can now get this thing done well.”

Autumn: And so it’s not that we’re perfect, but I think there’s a kindness factor of recognizing when there’s a miss, having the conversation, to use that again, and then moving on together. If we can do that, we can move mountains. I mean the other stuff, we can read books and learn about it and technical stuff.